Onslaught,

Onslaught wrote:


That happens in regular games too. The game won't let you add a strength modifier it if will cause you to exceed 10 strength. So once your Barbarian at strength 5 adds +3 to 8 he can't add another 3 because he'd reach 11. On other other hand if you start at strength 6, bless to 7 then add +3 you can reach 10 strength!

Onslaught wrote:


It affects none of them. They can all go to +5. Or rather Engineering can go to +6 if you add +2 to the Alchemist 3 times.

Onslaught wrote:


I believe that last fortify point (+4) is wasted. But I need to confirm that myself. If it is then your second sentence is true that +3 fortify vs +3 siege always works out to 0.

KGB

Onslaught,

Sun King:
The issue with Half Elves is the high cost and long build times. If you give the Sun King an extra couple at the game start that will help because they can be left on defense. But if that comes at the expense of losing other units from your initial starting set it's pointless because you need the other armies to take neutrals. If you do do leave the Half Elves as is and add a couple more to the Sun King's starting armies then I'd suggest the Ravens go to 1/2 or 2/1. Right now they are virtually useless units other than to fly a hero because they can't fight and there are no close cities to summon/build them with bonus's.

I didn't know Valkrie was merc 1. That's nice to know so you can get them from easy quests.

Sand Maggots
You are right that it's too easy for them to travel in the woods. You could make the case they don't even need woods bonus on any unit since they have hill bonus move and units with open/desert combat bonus.

LichKing
The idea of Shadows is to get a cheap +1 bonus to your stack from the Leadership. It's the only positive bonus that Black has. The idea is 1 Shadow, 1 Corpse Thrower and 6 Zombies in your stacks . They are not meant for hero stacks since heroes already have a +1 Leadership bonus.

The Deathknight unit is the main unit in a Hero stack thanks to it's 7/4 assassin power.

KGB

Wow, I sleep for 7 hours and the game is over and the scenario rebuilt! Eek,

Can you guys wait until tonight for me to add some considered input?

KGB it may help to know I am not actually doing a 'flying rush' I only have 1 unit left and it is in the far north. The one in the south was an opportunist!

Ian

I'm on page with Batz here - A LOT happening overnight. Onslaught, aren't you in Sweden? If you are, you must be on a crazy schedule!

KGB, I'd love to see the last turn you received. It would help me to get a better idea of what you were faced with as Sun King. Would you be opposed to sending it to me/us?

Props to both of you for acting so quickly on this unexpected turn of events. I can't wait to get going again!

Concerning the risk of starting out with an average quest that takes 5 turns (+/-). That risk is probably greater for Sun King, but it is a risk that always exists. I got a bad average quest to begin with. The choice of 'burn site'/'pillage gold'/'search ruin'. I chose 'search ruin' and I set it aside as it was all the way down by White. As Sun King you could start out with an easy quest, or take the chance on an average quest and set it aside if it takes you into the swamp. Yes, it always sucks to set aside a quest, but at least you then get to chose exactly the path you want to take with your hero.

It isn't a bad idea to add a few non-swamp squares between Sun Tower and North Marsh.

I agree that it would be nice for Sun King to have some Ravens to start out with - as it adds some possibilities in terms of questing.

Some Half Elves would be nice for air defense, and I agree with KGB that they should be 1-turners.

I think that Shadows are very useful as they are - not only for cheap attack stacks, but also for defense, in which their low str/hp doesn't matter much.

Decreasing the move of Devourers' to 14 seems like a good idea to me.

The situation is indeed different in this type of 3v3 team game than it is in an 8-player FFA game. Sun King seems to be in a difficult position given that he is in between Dark Elves and Sand Maggots who are unlikely to be attacked by others early on in the game. It would be very difficult for Wizards to attack Dark Elves - crossing the swamp towards Elven Fort or going through the strongly defended Green Citadel in the north - only to find themselves fighting in the woods where the elves have their bonuses. In the south the Sand Maggots are quite a distance from Khuzan whose natural path of expansion is north rather than west. It makes perfect sense for Maggots and Elves to gang up on Sun King in order to secure the western side of the map and thus ensure that they've got their backs free.

Lich King is in a somewhat similar situation in the east, but perhaps not quite as pronounced.

Anyway, I just want to get the game going, so I'll go with any changes that the rest of you can agree on

Lord Snow

I was just thinking, perhaps we should do a 'West vs East' game instead? Could be Dark Elves, Sun King, Sand Maggots vs Wizards, Moon King/Lich King, Khuzan.

That would minimize the danger of one player getting isolated and eliminated early on, and it would also help to even out any balancing issues that any single side might be suffering from.

Lord Snow

Lord Snow,

I can send you the turn.

But there isn't much to see really. Just a city of mine razed by the Maggots and flying units lurking on a mountain where I can't reach them. From where my capitol will be razed next turn since I can't reach it with any of my units because my only defenders in the area were in the city that was razed.

It *appears* I have lots of units but in reality they are mostly useless ravens which my hero has been summoning like crazy in an effort to fly over the endless swamp. Half the decent units I have were used to take Farmers Hill from Ian and the rest just arrived in my latest quest and now much begin the 5 turn walk across the swamp to my capitol (wish that swamp was south of my capitol between myself and the Maggots to form a natural barrier for both sides).

KGB

P.S. Incidentally if you get a 5 turn medium quest on turn 1 or abandon a quest you are probably screwed in the game. That loss of time is a huge setback at that point in the game. Especially since Neutrals are hard to take and use up most of your initial units (which aren't great) so you *need* Mercs/Allies/Gold badly early on. So I don't think I'd ever abandon my 1st quest because the 3 turn penalty followed by another 2-3 turns to complete the next one means you should have completed the first one where at least you would have gotten some reward.

Another option for this team game is to turn off 'Raze' entirely.

I'm not a big fan of no-raze normally in 1-1 games because self razing is important if you need to deny your enemies resources.

But in a set team game it reduces the incentive to rush because the most you can do is pillage out anything you acquire before holding it or giving it back to your opponent. This eliminates the 'raze and move on to the next city and repeat' issue with early flying mercs/allies.

KGB

Let me take these points made in some sort of order!

First, KGB I'm sorry to say this but I think you have shown poor game etiquette/sportmanship in announcing your resignation before a) talking it over with the rest of your team and b) playing out a enough turns to make it certain. What you have effectively done is say: "I'm going to lose, the games going to be a bore for me, let's stop and start over". The other thing is that you have done the equivalent of revealing a 'spoiler' for a movie. If your capitol was going to be razed then you have avoided your personal pain of this happening by resigning but in the same stroke you have removed the joy/'victorious feeling' your enemy would have felt when they did this. Indeed, even if we play on then this is ruined for them because you told them that your capitol was empty and therefore their feeling of achievement is anulled.

In Forlorn I am Sand Maggots and my only serious hero was recently killed by Arvid (Sun King) and I discussed with my ally my feelings that I'd probably 'go AI' if things didn't improve. He talked me out of it for reasons similar to those I describe above (he didn't go into so much detail). I decided to play on and things are still grim but perhaps not as bleak as I first imagined.

Second, you have made a huge assumption that your capital will be taken & razed. You are playing your enemy as if they know your position. Maybe when you play you pay attention to every detail of the event report and other indication that give away positioning but I think 90% of us don't (at least not most of the time!). You may be interested to note this exchange between Bill (Maggots) in our 'alliance discussion email':

"Not sure what I will do with my flying unit up north I may try to attack another city or just use him to scout or burn other sites"

My response:

"Bill, I suggest sending your flying unit north and simply make KGB aware you can take his cities if he leaves them empty. Raze any sites that you can."

My thoughts being that sometimes it is better to threaten to attack than to actually attack. I don't know if Bill would have had a go at your capital but I would imagine he'd anticipate you not leaving it entirely empty therefore he'd perhaps not attack. The flying Succubus is only 4/2 and if you left only a single Barbarian in the city it'd be 5/2 and two of them would be 6/2 & 6/2.

Which brings me to my third point. It was your choice to leave your city(s) empty! When you live by the sword die by the sword! I was astonished to find that you hit Farmer's Hill with 4 units thinking that you must have sent a few south and probably lost a couple gaining the neutral cities. So if you are going to expand aggressively (some may say recklessly) then you have to accept, with good grace, that the consequences will not always work out for you.

I've already pointed out that I was not doing a 'flying rush' with only that single flyer going for the empty city I spotted. I was in two minds to raze it but as above I thought you'd only hit me with 1 or 2 units max. Maggots were likewise not doing a rush (flying or not) either. If anything it was you who was rushing - in both directions. I note the 2 Ravens on the SW borders of my forest and the stack of 4 units led by a wolf in the hills just north of the Maggots desert!

So moving on from giving a tongue-lashing

I do not agree that the swamp is a major issue. The only problem I can see is if the quest is northerly. The way to fix this is supply a Raven in the starting line up (or an early build) and the Sun King player needs to choose an Average quest at their peril. I think putting hills or woods in the swamp is a pretty messy fix. If anything it could be shrunk a little. Maybe give the mountains some foothills up to the ruin and the forest 2 or 3 squares north instead of swamp. As has already been pointed out the swamp is great defence for Sun King.

On to other proposed changes:

Farmer's Hill needs a couple of defenders for sure.

Sun King starting with (say) 2 Half-Elves (unchanged stats, 2 turn is fine) instead of that single Hag would make sense. I'd also change the Capitol production so it's Ravens instead of Barbarians. That way a flyer can be created for turn 2 if required.

I would not change anything else. If you start doing this then the scenario will never be stable. I am sure if we started analysing other sides and areas of the map we'd all think of lots of things we could/should change but I think the beauty of Myth is that it is a bit different, things aren't always how you like them, there are real disadvantages to some of the sides (balanced by advantages).

On a personal note I am gutted that the game has turned sour because I was having great fun up north and I think that is now spoilt.

Ian

Ian, you make some very good points and give some very interesting game details.

I'm glad you come out and say what many of us are probably thinking. I thought it was poor etiquette/sportsmanship when Molotov resigned in the other game, and based on what you are saying it might also be the case in this game. Still, I realize that there are several sides to any situation.

KGB, I have great respect for you and your skills, but I also find that it is reckless leaving your capital empty - or with such poor defenses that it is vulnerable to attack from a Succubus. That goes for other cities as well - though to a lesser extent. If the loss of a particular city would bring you to resignation, then that city should obviously be defended.

Again, KGB, I would like to get the password (I just realized that I obviously already have the turn). Based on what Ian is saying I'm curious to see whether you were justified in resigning.

Personally, I would NEVER resign from a multiplayer game, but I know that I might be a minority when I enjoy trying to survive with all odds against me. Besides, I believe that if you can just survive in a multiplayer game, you always have a chance. Most importantly, I belive you have a responsibility towards the other players.

In a 1v1 game I don't think there is any problem with resigning - even though I would always choose to play to the very end, or until my opponent had no interest in playing anymore. I would fully understand an opponent wanting me to resign if it is obvious that I only have a theoretical chance of turning things around. I wouldn't want to be in that position myself.

I also think that Bill and Batz deserve to be applauded for being able to take out Sun King this early in the game - or bring KGB to resigning. In all the talk about balancing the game and the desire to get the game going again I forgot to give credit where credit is due. Bravo!

KGB, in spite of all this, I really hope that you'll be willing to participate in another Myth game. We are so few players and you are such a great capacity in every respect. I am certain I have a lot to learn from your skills, and I am very grateful for the chance to participate in a game with you. I've never had the pleasure of facing you - or working with you on a team - and I hope I'll still get that chance.

On another note, I still feel that I made the right decision in abandoning my first quest. I sent my hero to take a city and search a ruin - and got an easy escort duty quest back to my capital where I got a 'find holy relic'-quest that I could complete the very same turn. At the same time I picked up the Siege Engine that had just been produced - and together with that I took my third city and got another average quest. A 'find holy relic' quest that set me on a course towards two other ruins on the way to the object of my quest. My main army group was heading towards Moon King territory where they would have taken my fourth city, and then joined with my hero to take the Moon King capital. I think I was in a good position - in spite of getting a bad starting quest. Like Ian, I was most certainly having a great time, and I know that that goes for my friend Peter as well.

Still hoping that we'll get another game going very soon!

Lord Snow

Lord Snow,

I don't think you need to worry about KGB's future participation. He is after all the person who has helped me balance the scenario and is even now suggesting further balancing. Myth is a scenario in the making. It is not finalized.

I am not a particularly experienced DLR player compared to KGB but I used to play Quake (the original one) at a very high level back in 1998-1999 so I can totally see where KGB is coming from. When I was at the top of my game in Quake it was certainly not an option to play broken maps or use inadequate config or hardware. It's an attitude that comes with being good at something. Poor sportmanship is one way to look at it - and it's certainly a valid perspective - but there are always two sides to the story. Adding to that the fact that PBEM-games take a long time to complete an early resignation is kind of rational. Does not really matter to me if my opponent resigns or lets me take him city by city. The important part is the victory. And my team won this time around, balance problems or not.


Now back to the scenario:

I do agree that Sun King needs a unit with combat bonus in woods because the purpose of the woods around him is to protect from southern intrusions. The Half Elves are a candidate for this but to make them 2/2 +1 str in woods with missiles +2 makes them less versatile compared to now. I have had great use of my Half-Elves in the Forlorn game. They have kept the Dark Elves at bay for many many turns and they are awesome to stack with the hero as front figures.

Sun King also needs a 2 turn unit to get maximum out of the barracks cities.

And some more flyers initially. I already suggested giving hags some swamp combat bonus AND flight as a remedy for many of the problems but have not received any feedback on the flight suggestion. Think witches with brooms. Witches could also be seen as forest dwellers and thus have some combat bonus in woods and flight.


So Sun King needs:
1. A reasonably accessible unit with move & combat bonus in woods.
2. A worthwhile 2 turns unit
3. A unit with swamp combat bonus.
4. More initial flyers.

Should something be done about the stats of the ravens? They are meant as spies, a little stronger and slower than bats and with some curse which could be useful with 8 ravens flying together. Giving them a couple of more steps might be an idea, or perhaps changing curse to banding. I think banding might be a good idea for ravens. Say banding +3. Young ravens tend to live in flocks but mature ravens generally live in pairs.