This game was started on the 23rd of April 2011. We are playing on a modified version of Myth v.5 where there is no White Order and no Moon King.

Team 1
2. KGB (Sun King)
3. Lord Snow (Wizards of Zhur)
7. Peter (Khuzan)

Team 2
4. Bill (Sand Maggots)
5. Warlord Batz (Dark Elves)
8. Onslaught (Lich Cult)

The game is currently at turn 5 and everyone seems off to a reasonably good start. Especially KGB. Screenshot will be attached shortly.

I'll start off this thread by continuing our debate on the aggressive playing style of Warlord Batz

I mentioned earlier that I had learned the hard way in the Divine Right scenario, but it was in fact in another game set up by the late Mark Lambert (Lambere) that I became acquainted (ambushed, assaulted, surprised?) with the aggresivity/impatience of Batz.


I had the great pleasure of participating in a few multiplayer games set up by Mark. Kudoz to him - he did a lot of work for the PBEM community. We could sure use some more people of his kind.


This particular game was set up with the main purpose of testing some of Mark's own units, and if my recollection is correct, it was set on a map with a big chunk of land in the south and a great ocean in the center and a small island in the northeastern corner and a small island in the northwestern corner that I had the "pleasure" of sharing with Batz. My memory might fail me on some of the details, but as far as I remember I lost my capital in turn two (!?? ) when I came under attack from Batz. A clever - but ruthless - move on his part. I'm sure Batz has forgotten all about it, but for me the traumatic experience will never be forgotten.

I think it was the same scenario in which Mark himself started on an island that wasn't any bigger than his capital and he had to ask for another player to send him a boat so that he could get off the island by attacking it. Hehe.. a memorable moment indeed!

Anyway, perhaps we should cut Batz some slack. I think it has been very hard on him to be stuck with the Dark Elves far out in the woods. Nothing to attack the first turn??? However did he survive!

Lord Snow

Thanks for the plaudits Snow. I vaguely remember that scenario, wasn't it a team game?

Agressive moi? Life's too short to waste in defence. Gamble and if it doesn't pay off move on!

Batz

You're welcome Batz!

I don't think that particular game was a team game. I think the main focus was to test some units, and I suppose that is why we didn't make a new map when Mark got stuck on an island. Around the same time I think we started one or two team games on the Divine Right scenario, but I have no recollection of how they went. Perhaps we never finished those?

Well, as I see it, life's too precious to risk wasting by being too aggressive

Lord Snow

KGB, I've taken the liberty of replying to you email by posting here.

You wrote:
-------------
I never said I wasn't aggressive. I'd say it takes one to know one

On this map, it's very hard for Yellow to be aggressive. That massive swamp by them hinders them more than any other side because there is no Swamp move bonus and thus you must pay 5 to move 1 square. That really sucks when other races are paying 2 with hills/forest move bonus. It would be nice to have a few hills/woods squares dotting the swamp so that Yellow (and other sides) could use those when they are moving through that massive swamp (I am talking about the one north of the capitol and across the river over by White. The Ice in the North is the only other such terrain that suffers slower movement but it is at least 3 instead of 5.

It's one of the DLR drawbacks that Swamp/Ice movement bonus's were never properly implemented.

---------------

KGB, I agree with you that the swamps make it more difficult for Sun King to expand quickly. However, there is one city that can be reached in the first turn - and 'Sun Dragon' on the river is only 18 squares (2 turns) away from the capital. Once on the river there's access to several cities and quick transport.

I like swamps and ice. If there was a swamp move bonus, I would be in favor of letting Sun King have it, but I like that there are some areas that slow down ground units significantly. Hill and forest bonuses are too widely available if you ask me. Deserts should have some kind of move penalty, but since they don't, we are left with swamps, ice and light rocks.

From a defensive standpoint (one that I often take ), the swamps make the yellow mainland more difficult to attack.

One could consider giving Sun King more flying units for them to be less hindered by the swamps. Still, I don't know if it is necessary - you seem to be doing just fine

Lord Snow

Lord Snow,

Well I've already resigned on turn 6. So you can see how that swamp has worked out for the Sun King

You just can't be prepared for flying armies from both Green and Red. Once you move away from your capitol you can't get back with any armies to defend due to the 4-5 turns it takes to walk anywhere.

Rushing *seriously* works in DLR with flying armies combined with open maps that feature tough terrain.

Now it's not entirely the swamps fault as I was flying rushed from 2 sides because this is a team game with set alliances. But the fact you can't get to cities is a serious handicap for the Sun King. Knowing what I know now, I'd always rush Yellow if I was playing Red/Green because you are 90% likely to encounter empty/weak cities due to the long time to travel (Yellow has limited woods movement too).

If we do a restart there can't be any flying armies initially given out to any side longer term Red probably has too many flying armies in his mercs/allies with 4 of 7 units flying.

KGB

No point continuing without KGB. I will need some concrete suggestions for how to improve Sun King though. Removing the initial flyer from Green might help but primary reason why he could rush was because farmers hill was empty, a mistake by me, the scenario author. If Sun King has some more archers to spare i don't think rushing would be a big problem anyhow.


What I have in mind for Sun King is:

*Giving Hags’ +6 strength in Swamps and give them flight. Increase hits to 3. Should probably be 4 turners with new stats.
*Farmers hill currently lacks defenders. Needs to be added.
*Sun King should probably have Water elemental for ship.
*Adding road between Sun Dragon and Sun Tower
*Make valkyries stronger 7/3, warding +4 and make them merc type 3, alternatively Increasing movement for Cave Trolls’ to 16.
*Starting out with more Half Elves’


For Dark Elves i have this in mind:

*Decrease movement for Devourers (life drain +2) to 14.


For Sand Maggots:

Remove woods move bonus from Goblins’
Replace hill move bonus with woods move bonus on wolfriders’


For Lich Cult:

Make corpse thrower’ cheaper, say 150
Improve Shadows’. Kind of a pointless unit right now. More strength and hits.


General stuff:
Other than that just improve the roads a bit in the south east. Does not make much sense with roads when taking short cuts across the desert is faster.
Perhaps pre-place the item Chariot of modron as well, make it cheaper and possibly +4 instead of +6 grp movement?

Onslaught,

I wouldn't make too many dramatic changes. This game is different than a FFA because it has set teams. So players rush enemies that they normally would not do because they might try and ally with that side.

I am not sure if Ian knew Farmers Hill was empty. Even if he knew it had defenders he could easily just bypass it and fly on to the first Yellow city he can reach and attack. At 7/2 with Trample +1 it's likely he'll beat anything other than Giants.

Sun King:
- Definitely need a few non-swamp squares in the middle of the swamp north of the capitol. Even just a half dozen hill squares total sprinkled in that swamp makes a difference as you can move hill-swamp-hill and save the VERY long move time through the swamp because it's impossible to come back and defend once you move north. I was lucky to get a southward quest on turn 1 but if I got a Northward one I might have taken till turn 5 to complete it.
- Narrow the mountain range to the left of the capitol so that it's only 1 square wide. That way flyers can't lurk on the mountain range and not be attacked. Had I been able to attack Bills flier we'd still be playing.
- I would leave the Hags as they are. I really was looking forward to using them. I would not want to wait 4 turns for a Hag with 1 more hit (the swamp bonus comes into play rarely).
- Change the Half Elves to 1 turn, 2/2 +2 archery, cost 200 +1 in woods/woods move. That makes them useful for air defense only and you can then mass produce them.
- No need for a road between Sun Dragon/Tower. The initial starting units (Barbarians/Wolves) contain Hills/Forest move bonus so you can reach that city quite easily on turn 3.
- Replace the Half Elf with 3-4 Ravens. The hero needs flight if he gets a northward quest for a ruin since the swamp is still very hard to pass through.
- 5 strength Valkries would be fine so they can remain in Merc 2. I don't think the Cave Troll needs more movement. It's prime purpose is defense.

Dark Elves
- I agree the Devourers should move 14.

Sand Maggots
- Swapping bonus's seems fine. I guess the Wolfrider is 2 turns and the Goblin 1?.

Lich King
- How much does the Corpse Thrower cost now? I think 200 seems fair for a unit giving a siege bonus. Most sides bonus units cost at least 200.
- Why are Shadows useless? They are 3/2 with Leadership +1. That makes them heroes with that Leadership bonus. Not sure how that is useless. Are you thinking about the old shadows that were 2/1 invisible?

General
- I would not pre-place that Chariot. It's a very nice item to get with flight and group move +6. One of my favorites so it's nice that all sides have a chance to get it in a ruin/merchant/quest reward. Lowering the movement to +4 might help balance it a bit better.
- It's unfortunate the desert terrain is all 2 moves. There is a 3 move desert terrain but that is only available in a different tile set that doesn't have ice. So you can't get it on Myth. Since everything is open terrain in the south I am not sure they need many more roads because the North sides have to struggle though tough terrain and need what few roads they get to compensate.

Lets see what others have to say.

KGB

Batz knew farmer's hill was empty. Anyhow hard to say how people would have played under different circumstances.

Sun King

- I will implement the suggested terrain changes.
- I will add some combat bonus in swamp to the hags without changing anything else.
- I kind of like the half elves the way they are now but I am open to changes. Just don't want them too similar to what other sides have in terms of archery.
- Valkyries are currently type 1 mercs, at least that's how i assigned them.

Sand Maggots

- Goblins' are turn 1 and Wolf Riders are turn 2 yes. At moment I think it's too easy for Sand Maggots to move through the woods and it makes it kind of pointless.


Lich King
- Corpse Thrower is currently 250 gold with siege +1.
- Shadows are not bad but fitting in units with low group modifiers and low/moderate strength (this goes for corpse thrower as well) into bigger stacks is not necessarily worthwhile. I think I would be much better off with a necromancer, death knight and 6 zombies than 6 zombies + shadows and corpse thrower. Ok I could arguably build the latter stack faster and at a lower price but seeing as both Necro and Death knight are already available in capital it makes it a bit different. And having the option to build different kinds of stacks is not bad. I would just like the shadow / corspe thrower option to be more accessible at its current level of usefulness. Or made better.

Roads in south east:

- What I meant was that units prefer desert over the road between Salty Hollow, Empty hollows and Echoing Walls so I need to relocate the road a bit. There is also some screwed up distances to the two bridges that lie in the vicinity of Khuzan Bazaar.

Btw I noticed that capping bonuses at -3, +3 seems to affect the strength modifier as well. In another game I could only give me Barbarian Strength +3 once. Then that option disappeared. I am not sure what other things may be capped at 3. Acid, lightning, assassin? Necromancy? Renown? Engineering?

One thing I have not looked into is if a stack with - for example - fortify +4 in total (abilities, spells, items, walls) would have any use of that last fortify point if the enemy has say siege +3 or if everything over 3 is stripped regardless with the result that you could never have fortify bonus against a stack with siege +3 and you could never give your enemies -1 strength with siege if they have fortify +3.