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TOPIC: Strength 10
Strength 10 1 year, 4 months ago #3795
There's seems to be a mistake in the Rules of Combat pdf;
NOTE1: Because banding bonus's are calculated AFTER other bonus's, units with banding can reach 15 strength. Hero's can also reach 15 strength. They are the only types units that can reach 15 strength. It's possible to reach Strength 10 not just with Banding, but also with terrain modifiers; at least it is displayed as such. There's quite a few units this applies to, mostly if you construct them in a city with a Smithy, and Bless them afterwards. Ballistae: Str 5, city +3 Giant Scorpions: Str 5, desert +3 Ice Demons: Str 5, ice +5 Iceguard: Str 7, ice +1 Knight Lords: Str 6, field +2 Liches: Str 8, marsh +1 Rock Elementals: Str 6, hills +3 Spectres: Str 8, marsh +1 Treants: Str 6, woods +2 Undead Beasts: Str 8, ice +1 Unicorns: Str 6, woods +3 Stormheim: Black Rider: Str 6, field +2 Hydra: Str 7, marsh +2 Lava Wyrm: Str 6, hills +2 Sasquatch: Str 8, forest +1 Undead Horde: Str 7, hills +2 How significant are/were such strength 10 units in competitive play? Is this nothing more than an oddity, or were there strategies built on exploiting this? Also, it isn't spelled out in the PDF, but I assume the +3 strength bonus to missile attacks can exceed Strength 15? I don't think there's another way to get past Strength 15, even though I found a text file with a medal chart that goes up to 18. |
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Re: Strength 10 1 year, 4 months ago #3796
So are you saying you actually *see* units with strength 15 in the combat screen? That's where it really matters. Theoretically many units can reach 15 but in practical purposes, they are capped at 9.
Banding and hero strength were the only ones that I recall reaching 15 on the combat screen. Some of the other cases may have done so but since they never appeared in competitive play it's possible no one ever noticed. 15 matters only because every extra +1 in strength makes you that much more likely to win a combat. Especially hero combats which often decide a game. Max strength is capped at 15 even for missiles. Are you sure you read the medal chart correctly? What medals give you is an extra roll at various dice strength (instead of the default D20). I think 1 medal was a 2nd roll at D30 and 4 medals was an extra roll at D18. So maybe you confused the 18 in the medal chart with strength instead of the 2nd roll being at that dice value. KGB |
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Re: Strength 10 1 year, 4 months ago #3797
Hi KGB,
yeah, I tested it on the first Thalassia map, as I had a savegame near the end there, and it has Knight Lords and Ballistae in the army list. Build them in a city with a blacksmith, then bless them. Knight Lords have 15 strength in the open in my hero stack, Ballistae have strength 15 when attacking/defending cities. But it makes sense that it never came up in competitive play, as it'll practically never be possible there. But think about it, if it didn't work this way, there'd be no reason for the ice demon's strength 5, +5 in ice. The question about strength 18 has come up first because of granite golem's archery chart: web.archive.org/web/20120625012437/http:...war3/missiles_en.php Second, because of this write-up on medal chance, which I had the impression might have originated with Steve Fawkner himself on one of the old forums?
Base Medal chance is just the term given to the chance for each army to get a medal. Eg. for Elephants it's 30% and for Peasants it's 40%. As you note, the bigger the better.
Here's how the awarding of medals works:
1) After a successful battle the victorious side has a chance for 1 unit to receive a medal. This unit is selected at random from the stack of regulars units (ie. No Mercs, Allies, Summoned units or Raised units can be selected by this random chance). If there are no regular units then there is no medal roll made. So as Wooger noted, any unit can get the medal.
2) The base medal chance for the randomly selected unit is taken and various modifiers are added. These modifiers include the heroes medal chance (if a hero is present), the number of units in your stack compared to the other stack and a couple of others. I mention the number of units in your stack compared to the other stack because this is a big modifier. For example if your stack contains 8 units and you kill a single unit you will receive a big negative modifier to your base medal chance due to vastly outnumbering your opponent. On the other hand if you have a stack of 8 and hit a city with 32 men you will have a big positive modifier due to facing overwhelming odds. For this reason, esp in Email games it makes sense to kill a scout unit not with your big hero 8 stack but merely with the hero (for the xp and his modifier) and a single unit from your regulars (esp elephants due to the big medal chance they have). I can often generate a bunch of medalled units this way.
3) The roll is made after all modifiers are added. If the roll is less than the medal chance then the unit gets a medal. If the medal chance was less than 0 after modifiers then no medal is possible.
Notes:
1) There is a bug in the game that works like this. If you summon a unit it normally gets no medals or medal chances. BUT, if you have that unit in your regulars then the summoned unit CAN get medals as you saw with your Wraith.
2) Also, summoned units move into your regular fight order if you have that unit in your regulars, mercs or allies. Otherwise they always fight up front. This is how your wraith went to the back of your stack cause it was in your regulars. Note that armies raised from Necromancy do NOT get this bonus nor can they go into your fight order.
Unit Strength Hit Chance
0 medals 1 medal 2 medals 3 medals 4 medals
1 0.0500 0.0817 0.0865 0.0932 0.1028
2 0.1000 0.1600 0.1692 0.1818 0.2000
3 0.1500 0.2350 0.2481 0.2659 0.2917
4 0.2000 0.3067 0.3231 0.3455 0.3778
5 0.2500 0.3750 0.3942 0.4205 0.4583
6 0.3000 0.4400 0.4615 0.4909 0.5333
7 0.3500 0.5017 0.5250 0.5568 0.6028
8 0.4000 0.5600 0.5846 0.6182 0.6667
9 0.4500 0.6150 0.6404 0.6750 0.7250
10 0.5000 0.6667 0.6923 0.7273 0.7778
11 0.5500 0.7150 0.7404 0.7750 0.8250
12 0.6000 0.7600 0.7846 0.8182 0.8667
13 0.6500 0.8017 0.8250 0.8568 0.9028
14 0.7000 0.8400 0.8615 0.8909 0.9333
15 0.7500 0.8750 0.8942 0.9205 0.9583
16 0.8000 0.9067 0.9231 0.9455 0.9778
17 0.8500 0.9350 0.9481 0.9659 0.9917
18 0.9000 0.9600 0.9692 0.9818 1.0000
Are you sure that strength is capped at 15? I know you have the 1.0 source code, but the +3 vs flying bonus was added only in patch 1.02. It would have made sense to extend the cap for missiles there. I suppose it could be tested the hard way, in game. |
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Last Edit: 1 year, 4 months ago by Hannibal Rex.
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Re: Strength 10 1 year, 4 months ago #3799
The reason for the Ice Demon to have +5 on Ice terrain has nothing to do with the potential for 15 strength units. It's just meant to represent how good they fight on Ice. Remember many times there are negative bonus's in play (fear, chaos, siege) so that +5 on Ice helps to ensure they get to fight with a positive bonus there.
As you noted, I have the 1.0 code and there it's capped at 15. There was no mention of strength being allowed to go past 15 in 1.02 by Steve. The whole reason for the cap was to prevent unkillable units which could otherwise reach 20 strength (you can do this by adjusting the rule file to allow bonuses to go beyond +5/-3 range). Also heroes can carry an infinite number of strength items etc. I've personally never tested to see if Archery can reach 18 strength. You are more than welcome to do so and post back here. The easiest way might be to adjust the rule file to allow bonus's to go outside the +5/-3 range and to change the bless to give say +5 strength instead of +1 and then try with Moonguards at 9 strength with a +5 bonus (so 14->17) and see if repeated tries lines up with his percentages. KGB |
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Last Edit: 1 year, 4 months ago by KGB.
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