Long time no see.

With the release of the GoG version I'm getting back into the game. I'm thinking of building an Alchemist focused army set but it's been a long time and I don't really remember that much about army building outside of needing a mix of bonus/penalties and some of the more favoured units like Elven Cavs.

What do I need to look out for if I want to focus on using the Alchemist as one of my heroes? Any suggested army lists?

Are you talking about using the original heroes or the KHeroes?

The original Alchemist is a bottom feeder hero so there won't be many good hero sets for him. Essentially you'll end up creating a good army set with better hero choices and then adding in a crummy Alchemist in 1 of the hero slots

KGB

KGB wrote:

The KHeroes version of course (+Stormheim Units) - any specific tips / army set-up / early game questing strats (I noticed he's kinda a tortoise) for him?

Also, what improvements did the Alchemist get going from normal to K version?

On a non-Alchemist specific note - for the Ally Slots, other than Ally 4 being a Dragon or Archon, what's the general thumb for what to put in Ally 1 / 2 / 3? Ally 1 is probably cheap Meat while Ally 3 is usually the more expensive one which kinda feels Ally 2 in an awkward slot.

You can see the changes to the K-version in the stats link under DLR (upper left side of page).

The primary difference is the upgrade on his summon Golem spell from the useless Clay Golem to the Stone Golem. He also got the ability to reach +5 Fortify on his own without being in a city (spell + fortify power).

As you noted, he's slow so you pretty much have to pack the other 3 hero slots with at least 2 speed heroes and 1 other hero with a group move spell. I would never use him in anything other than slot 3/4 which means he would rarely be offered anyway because it's really bad if he's your first hero.

Ally 1 is normally a 2 turn unit but you can occasionally go with a 3 turner (Moonguards/Gnoll Calv being the popular 3 turn unit there).
Ally 2&3 are normally 3 or 4 strong meat units (Elephants/Iron Golems for Trample or strong flying units with useful battle powers like poison/disease/curse/lightning/acid etc).
Ally 4 is almost always a Dragon since that's the only ally slot you can afford one. The only time I see an Archon there is if you use a Priest and want to be able to put summoned Archons in your fight order.

KGB

KGB wrote:

What abilities would be prioritized with your AP when leveling him up? Also, would it be worth it to put Stone Golems in your army set for Fight Order? I figured you probably want them in front anyway so not doing it would allow you to pack a different unit for more flexibility.


Would this revised list be OK

1) Ranger
2) Vampire
3) Alchemist
4) Bard

Some other misc questions

1) Is there an excel sheet or alternate places with a units chart (including the Stormheim ones if possible) so I can use features like sort by specific attribute e.g Sort by Production Turns, Hits (to find all the 4 Hits unit for Missile immunity) etc

2) Is there any use for the big Missile 1 units (Titan / Manticore) or the fatter + longer production Poison Disease etc / Assassin units? (Hydra / Wyvern / Succubi)? It seems like those abilities are the ones where you would rather have more units to stack their ability rather than fewer even with the improved stats.

065227N wrote:


All depends on when you get him (first hero, 2nd hero etc) and how late in the game he arrives.

As a first hero I'd say Engineering is very good because the cheap upgrade can let you build some powerful units very cheaply (ie half price dragons). Also Teleport can help him complete quests faster. Later in the game you'll want those Golems, esp if he reaches L6 when he doubles the number he creates.



You are literally picking 4 of the bottom 5 heroes. The Bard and Vampire are also very slow heroes. They look OK movement wise but they level up slowly. Also they will require crazy amounts of mana for all the spells they can cast. You can have 1 of Alchemist/Bard/Vampire not all 3. Maybe 2 of the 3 but even that's risky.

Barbarian/Thief are MUCH better than Ranger for speed and they don't use mana (so you have it for other heroes).



Not that I know of but it's been a while so I might have forgotten. However, I believe Molotov's editor allows you to sort armies based on different criteria (turns, skills etc) so that may give you what you want when you want.



Definitely there is. You can only get 8 units in a stack so they work very well in hero stacks (for city defense where you can have 32 then the masses of 1 turn units are OK). Especially the flying units like Wyvern/Lamia/Succubi are good because that means the stack flies and they are immune to trample. Many people of take those if they use a Shaman or Necromancer since the KEvil Eye spell stacks with their poison/disease etc.

KGB

KGB wrote:

Aww man, I was hoping not to be cookie cutter but I'm definitely noticing a serious power drop in the early game with those guys. (Who's the last worse guy anyway - General?)

So I guess the hero list will be like (all K versions)

1) Barb
2) Thief
3) Alc
4) ???

Anyway again another unrelated question but what settings do people usually play on? I assume Fog of War / Dark Map / can't examine stacks is on because otherwise the view stat of units and scouting would be pointless but I'm not sure about stuff like Weaker/Stronger Neutrals and City Damage.

Hard to say which hero is the 'worst'. Most likely the Paladin because the Questing skill is almost useless if he's not your 1st or 2nd hero.

The better Speed and Teleport heroes (Bard, Thief, Wizard, Summoner) form the top tier. The combat bonus heroes (Shaman, Priest, Monk) form the 2nd tier. The 3rd tier would be the heroes not quite good enough for tier 1&2 because the heroes there do it better than they do (Ranger, Warrior, Necromancer). Then everyone else is the bottom tier (Alchemist, General, Vampire, Bard, Paladin).

You should not have more than 1 hero from tier 3&4 in your set and that hero should pretty much be 4th hero.

Game settings depend on what kind of game your playing (PBEM or online simultaneous). Games always use Fog of War and never allow examining Stacks. But many don't use Dark Map (esp on scenario maps when everyone knows the map anyway).

Stronger neutrals is the normal setting. City Damage is typically on but not always.

KGB

KGB wrote:

Huh, that bad? I'm guessing they have some serious structural design issues that even the modified K versions can't pull them up to speed?


What about Active neutrals setting?

Anyway I attached my current Army Set - it could definitely probably be optimized better but like I said I'm trying not to be too cookie cutter which explains the wackiness of Ally 1-3.

The problem with the bottom 2 tiers of heroes is that they are too slow. Either slow moving or slow to level up or both. A couple need crazy amounts of mana (15-20 a turn) to be successful and that's hard to achieve when you don't know which cities make mana (dark maps).

Against AI's you can pretty much use any heroes. But in human games, what matters is how fast heroes level up and how fast they can complete quests. So heroes that can reach L6 (when spell powers double) for 50-60xp are in high demand because by then they usually have +5 in at least 1 power along with speed or teleport or strong summoning power etc. It's really all about medium quests which deliver 7xp so you only need 4-5 to reach L6.

Active neutrals is normally on. Players pretty much never splat active doesn't really come into play much.

I can't see the other side of your PGS (ie max mana which should be 12 for teleport) to see if you did anything wrong there.

As for your army selections you have the following problems:
1) You have 3 1-turn units. 2 of which do the same thing (rovers, halflings). One of those should go.
2) You have NO Chaos bonus in any of your armies. Enemy hero stacks will be very hard to kill since you can't counter their leadership.
3) If you have Brass Dragons in regulars there is no reason for Green in Ally 4. That's a duplication of Fear (+4 and +5).
4) Are you going to play a lot of water maps (ie deliberately select island maps). If not, the Water Elemental is a waste at 100 points.
5) Black Dragons while really powerful are also REALLY expensive. You better hope you get a lot of gold from neutrals/ruins or you won't build many Black Dragons.

Here's another tip. In your Capital city, the game selects 4 units. 1 from army 1/2, 1 from 3/4, 1 from 5/6, 1 from 7/8. But it's not 50/50. It's 75/25 on the odd number unit. So you have 75% chance of starting with Black over Brass. Is that what you want?

Here's an example of a PGS I've used in a lot of games that allow teleport (some games are played with no teleport heroes allowed).

Regulars:
Gnome
Halfling
Banshee
Gladiators
Elf Calv
Battering Ram
Green Dragon
Emerald Dragon

Mercs:
Dwarf Runners
Dark Pegasi
Cyclops

Allies:
PegaCentaur
Elephants
Balrogs
Archons

Heroes
Barbarian
Monk
Wizard
Priest

Boat: Warship

Max Mana: 12

KGB